FAA ARFF Inspections

Hello,

As a current FAA cert inspector and 27 year ARFF'er, I enjoy getting out to meet the ARFF crews at airports I inspect. I know how I felt about the FAA inspections then, but I was curious about some of the things that the ARFF personnel like/dislike about the way inspections are conducted. For example, along with the paperwork and drill, I like to have some "one on one" time with the newer ARFF personnel, let them tell me about their jobs, training, equipment and expectations. I have a "safety brief" with the duty crew who will respond to the drill, and remind them about safety & that it's just a drill...that we can do it again if a problem develops. What might make the inspections easier or at least less stressful than some think them to be now? Of course I have opinions about equipment and staffing, and I get my licks into the HQ people when I can, but I have to inspect based on the regulation...with that being said, any comments? Reasonable suggestions? Lets chat if you like. Thanks for your time and consideration. Stay safe!

I feel the biggest issue to everyone involved on the Fire Side is that some of the training requirements are so bogus. Adapting to Structural?? That applied to situations where the guys who cut grass did the ARFF, but organizations like DFW, Orlando, BWI, and Boston Logan do things on a daily basis that blow the socks off of worrying about making a hose connection. While I am sure my brother’s in arms would kill me for making this suggestion, but I think FAA Cert Inspectors need to do actual hands on things. Coming from the USAF we had inspections that could prove we could do our job. But those only worked best when done by our Peer's. I can appreciate someone who has been in our business inspecting me, but we have to admit, it makes a stronger point when you have someone who has been there, done that.

I am lucky and get a chance to have the new Cert Inspectors come through my airport. I am at Will Rogers In Oklahoma City, yep, neighbors to the MMAC Federal Aviation Center. Home to many great FAA Programs. I take full advantage of my time with those inspectors!

We face a tough job in ARFF. While our brother and sister Fire Fighters in the Streets send an Engine Company and Squad with a total manpower strength sometimes up to 8 persons to a single car accident with 1 maybe 2 victims, we send 8 persons and 4 pieces of ARFF vehicles to a vehicle accident carrying 120 Passengers, oh and several thousand gallons of fuel. Humm does that make our job easy? Realistic?

My PERSONAL opinion is that it takes a solid training program, and a great airport administration to make things work. I flew into Denver International two weeks ago and thought, oh my god; I hope they have an army waiting here. Cause outside help to the layperson seems so far off. But I applaud those men and women cause I have seen video proof that they can kick butt and get it done. (Boeing 777 Fire).

So, what can we do? Be realistic in our inspections, be realistic in our training, and be realistic in what our mission is.

My two cents..

I understand the frustration with some of the requirements, like responding to an aircraft with 4 vehicles and 8 ARFFers to a 120 person incident. But that is a GREAT response. I still get anxious when I think of an airport with 1 truck, 1 firefighter and 120 people...which is very common in the US. I agree that having an inspector that has "been there" is an ideal, but in my office, I'm the only one with actual line ARFF experience. I have done hands on training at some of the airports I cover...usually after I ask questions or request a demonstration of a piece of gear, say the hydraulic rescue tool. Many times I walk away less than convinced that the individual is really familiar with his equipment. One thing I find frequently is vehicle operation issues: Can the engineer/driver demonstrate operating the truck in a manual mode (most times no)? What are the discharge rates for turrets/handlines, dry chem? I guess I don't want to be too picky when I conduct the inspections, so I was interested in what might be additional areas to explore. I know many airports have tremendous liability due to poor training programs, some know and don't care, some just are doing the best they can. Unfortunately, as the regs are written, not much the local chief or even airport manager can do other than work with their political & letter groups to try & work in change. Most of it still boils down to money, who has it, can get it, and where they want to apply it.

Jim,

I concure with you on the issue of some of our people don't get enough hands on with their own equipment. I task my people with things like that all the time. Try to spice things up.

The issues are deeper than manpower, its a whole mindset that nothing will ever happen here.. IOWA ... So, we all need to work together, FAA, Airports Administrations and ARFF to make this work gaining a common goal of providing the best service possible!

Don't tell me it's broke! Tell me how to fix it!!! Thats the attitude!

Bob

Jim, The only problem that we have had in the past is that there was and is so much aircraft information out there that nobody could decide on what to study, so we ended up trying to learn everything about every aircraft that flys in and out of "BUSH" and you can't do that it's to much, so after the last inspection we got together with the inspector and asked him what he wanted us to know he told us and now we are putting together a job knowledge book "for everybody" that's the key everybody has to be on the same page.
As for getting some "JABS" in at the fire dept. leadership can you make a trip down here.
My last question you said that you were in ARFF for 27 years before becoming an F.A.A. inspector. What kind of credentials would you need to become an inspector? I have nine years until I retire is this something that I could work towards I'd like to continue doing something in the aviation industry after I retire.
Thanks ALEC

Jim, Thank you for your insite on how FAA inspections should go.
Skee
Monterey Airport

Jim, it is great to see you are posting on the ARFFInfo.com site. We were excited about you coming to our department and welcome with open arms anything you can do to helps us get the mission done. I specifically enjoyed your attention to detail and support. We are motivated and our vision is to enhance our ARFF abilities..you are correct on budgets and political issues...these are AFI (Areas For Improvements).

It was good to meet you and the duty shift...I hope that all is well and you and the department remain successful and well trained. Keep up the good work!

Stay Safe

Jim,

I concure with you on the issue of some of our people don't get enough hands on with their own equipment. I task my people with things like that all the time. Try to spice things up.

The issues are deeper than manpower, its a whole mindset that nothing will ever happen here.. IOWA ... So, we all need to work together, FAA, Airports Administrations and ARFF to make this work gaining a common goal of providing the best service possible!

Don't tell me it's broke! Tell me how to fix it!!! Thats the attitude!

Bob

We are one of those airports responding one guy, one truck, to a 34 passenger aircraft. It is hard to avoid complacency with staff and higher ups. We may have had only a handful of alerts in the last twenty years, which 90% were GA with landing gear problems. How do you justify having a larger staff or more expensive equipment?

As with anything these days relating to the economy, justifying staff and equipment is a challenge, especially if your airport has the "it's never happened here" attitude. Good training and equipment is expensive and as government/airport employees we all must be good stewards of the public trust (meaning don't waste $$$). My personal opinion is that the above mentioned training/equipment while being expensive, is the cost of doing business. The airport has watchdogs on the purse, but you haven't seen an animal that will be as aggressive and tenacious as the lawyers that will decend on your airpatch if you have an accident. Even if all goes well the scrutiny you will endure will make you wish for a valium salt lick. Having been on the deposition end of accidents both at my old airport and with the FAA, failure to train will be the biggest chink in your armor, and the lawyers won't care how much it costs...they will simply refer to part 139, NFPA and IFSTA standards and say, you guys didn't do this and our client experienced a loss. And then you'll pay.

But the biggest loss is if you as a firefighter know that you are inadequately trained and someone dies. Then you spend countless hours second guessing yourself about the "what if's...?" If you can't get the fiunds for training, I'm sure other airports will help as much as they can, or the good people on this site will step up. If you or the other firefighters As far as equipment goes, I became pretty good at "finding" equipment, maybe you can too. Best of luck...

Stay Safe

I think the biggest hurdle that we see is the Advisory Circulars. The A/C’s are published and are taken just as they are labeled, Advisories. These A/C’s are not followed only when they are needed which puts some departments at a disadvantage right from the beginning. It appears that the FAA doesn’t mandate these to be followed for fear that they would have to pay for them to be followed. Fire Departments across the nation have to follow OSHA and possibly NFPA standards without any compensation why can’t the FAA force airport ARFF departments to follow the A/C’s?.

I appreciate seeing an inspector interested in making ARFF better you are welcome here anytime..I have 15 years in a small index and 12 years DOD in houston..I wonder how you deal with the people who know you are coming and let you see just what they want you to see...and how does a conscientious employee deal with this

I think the inspector should arrive unannounced. airports are going to be at their best when they know an inspection is coming, then when the inspector is gone..its back to business as usual. our firefighters arn't even allowed to talk to the inspector.

unannounced in deed just as the emergency would be

I totally agree with the unannounced drills and I think it's the only way to get a truley honest response time. I have actually seen airport management warn the responders of the impending drill and have them sitting in the trucks gear on ready to go. But what does the drill really prove? I guess it proves you can transport a truck from point A to point B and push a button to show water. It does not reflect a departments ability to make an effective response or the responders ability to carry out any of the other skills one needs to effectively mitigate any possible incident or accident. Until we move to some kind of performance based evaluation we are just pencil whipping records. I know you understand all of this already and I am really glad you participate on this site. I wish more Cert. Inspectors did and I appreciate your efforts in trying to make things better.

Mr. Price, I want to say thank you for placing your post. I hope that you can jingle some chains because of your 27 years on the job, and I know that you feel our pain. I think that it is very difficult to carry out my skills for and incident when the FAA keeps ducking the staffing question. We are a C-index airport, and use PKP powder so we use 3 vehicles per the FAR 139. So that's 3 drivers right? We are also required to have 1 EMS person to perform triage on the aircraft is that correct also? Now who is going to perform the so called rescues from inside the aircraft? I'm asking because this is been the long standing argument since I became a proud ARFF Firefighter 16 years ago.

Thanks,

Franz LaVigne
ALB-Firefighter