Gear Up Landing This Morning Ohare

Just Saw On Fox News Md80 Land At Ohare No Nose Gear. Looked Like It Went Smooth. I Know Its Early But Ohare Guys Fill Us In When Ya Can.

Bh

It was an AA MD-83, (N961TW) 131 pax, 5 crew. No nose gear.
I got there after the thing landed.. (What else is new!)
The guys said the Flight Crew did a great job of setting the nose down gently. There was no fire after he came to a stop. Companies surrounded the a/c and established communications with the crew.
We used a small ramp that we carry on an ARFF vehicle at the L-1 door, and set our mobile stairs to the L-2 door and calmly evacuated the a/c right there on the r/w. EMS did their checks and got all of the medical releases, no injuries at all. Passengers were then taken to the terminal via buses. Then just waited for the Feds.. AA eventually used airbags to lift the nose, got the nose gear down and towed it to a hangar...
Interesting note, the crew and the ATCT folks must have watched the same WWII flick last night because they originally called for us to foam the r/w. We told them NO, along with our reasons why.. Earlier today, a wise old ARFF guy and friend said to me, "old pilots teaching younger pilots old tricks".. Billy, I couldn't have said it better myself!

That's it for now,
You all stay safe,
Tom

Tom, thanks for the recount of this incident. Sounds like it went well...minus the request for foaming the runway. It really is Hollywood like to me (as I am sure it is to you as well) to even think of foaming the runway. I can thank my involvement with the Fire/Rescue community for learning that foaming of the runway is old hat...otherwise, I have still thought it plausible. Mind you, Flight Operations manuals...from my company for example, discourages flight crews from this kind of activity. To paraphrase directly from my manual:

It discusses in three of four paragraphs the advantages of such. It describes foaming as providing a degree of safety, but not absolutely assuring fire prevention. It states a 15-60 minute window of maximum effectiveness.

The detriments it includes are: reducing braking effectiveness ( a moot point with one or more landing gear malfunctioning!) and I think the most important point is the reduction (possible) in ARFF index. While it is not expressly prohibited, it is discouraged more than encouraged.

I would imagine those AA pilots were some old dogs...this from on old dinosoar (33 :eek: )himself....older pilots, now thats a whole 'nother story.

I hope I am not harping on anything negative. This incident sounds like a success story. I just wanted to open up a new can of worms...:D

Anthony, I notice the "15 - 60 minutes" time frame.. Interesting..
Our runways, as I would assume are similar to other Part 139 certificated airports, have grooves cut in the pavement for water to flow off of the runway.. As our foam mixture is 97% water, most of the agent just flows off of the pavement. I wonder who came up with that time frame information, and how they came up with it.. I also much prefer to have the agent available for use on or in the a/c when it's needed most..

On a side note, anyone interested can listen in on the NTSB public hearings being conducted right now live via the internet by going to NTSB.gov and following the links.. Might be a little boring since they are talking about friction coefficients and stopping distances etc, but there will be a more interesting hearing on July 12th and 13th that pertains to ARFF.. The incident that will be discussed is the "Fire On-Board a United Parcel Service (UPS) DC-8 , Philadelphia International Airport (PHL), February 8, 2006"
That one should be interesting...

Stay safe,
Tom

P.S,
Anthony, ever make any trips to ORD? If so, give me a call and I'll meet up with ya and we can chat...
Tom

Most pilots and perhaps most airlines are unaware that runway foaming is not even viable at most airports any longer. I am sure the time frame dates back to protein foam. Last I heard, only Bradley Int'l was identified as having protein foam or a possiblity of foaming a runway. Once again, we need to get the information to pilots and airlines. "We Don't Foam Runways"

It is truly amazing in this day and age that there are still pilots out there that think we still do it. I have talked to many pilots when we do training and they ask about it and I tell them it hasn't been done since the laste 70's. and the response is REALLY.................

stay safe out there.

bh

Found these picture on Airliners.net. Happened over in Costa Brava, Spain back in Oct., 2005.

Caption with picture stated that the CASA 212 had landed with the main gear prependicular to the runway. In one of the picture you can alos see the ARFF crew towing the aircraft with their truck. It is not clear in the caption, but it looks like they maybe faomed the runway.
673

674

In my humble opinion this "gap of knowledge" regarding foaming of runways is only the begining. If pilots think that ARFF still foams the runways, just ask these pilots ,"How many firefighters are going to be at your airplane, in an emergency, under the 3 minute rule?" The answers I get are the same I would have given before I got involved with firefighting.

I believe this occurs because we (pilots and ARFF) RARELY interact excpet when its already too late...during an emergency. I am not advocating a "Dinner Dance" :cheers: or that we exchange roles someday (though that could be fun!:ban: ) but I am a proponent of better and more frequent relations.

I believe the aviation training environment needs to incorporate greater details and discussion when it comes to emergencies. I think the culture is, "get it on the ground and everything will be fine." I only partly agree with that logic. Sure, the ground is alot better than the air when you are smoking up....but, if we are going to avoid injuries etc...we have to incorporate more of the transition from flight to being on the ground.

I don't want to come across as knowledgable or authoritative. I simply find this subject to be an exciting diversion from standard line flying. There are a billion other subjects that could be expanded upon in both fields. We (I) just happen to like this one...hence why we are here.

I do not have any "all encompassing solutions." But if we sat in on each others ground schools and training sessions alot of eyes would be opened..for the good and bad..which would be good! I also do not propose that the public is being shortchanged when it comes to safety...we are no doubt the best (tell that to the rest of the world! LOL) in the business when it comes to ARFF and aviation...but we could be better. Until some big changes are made, each of us has to go the extra mile (our own time) to promote better interaction.

Tom, I am not sure where they get the 15-60 minute window...maybe some archane document...but I surely wont be asking for the foam on the runway anytime soon...and i am fairly confident that less and less pilots are still thinking it possible.

Also, I do get to ORD from time to time. Just a matter of getting it in one of my trip segments for an overnight and I would be glad to meet up with you. I have to say, it is easier to fly into Ohare than it is to taxi around that place!!!

Anthony, I whole-hearted agree with your assessment..

It would be nice if pilot organizations such as ALPA, APA and SWAPA (just to name a few) for commercial operations, and the AOPA for general aviation pilots, could attend conferences sponsored by the likes of the ARFF Working Group so that they could learn what we in the ARFF profession have to offer, and we could learn what the pilot/flight crew expects from us. And while we’re at it, why not get flight attendant organizations such as the AFA involved as well. After all, they are the ones that actually do the evacuations…

Time to get off my soap box.. I hate typing anyway..

Anthony, next time you make it to ORD, and finish taxiing around our fair airport, give me a call and I’ll meet you at your gate. I look forward to actually talking with you rather than typing…

Everyone stay safe,
Tom

Tom,

Which ORD company are you on?

No "Company".. I run the live fire training simulators at our CFD Regional Training Facility..

Tom

U Da Man...................

Bh

Take it easy and be nice William....

:ban: :ban: :ban: :thumbsup:

A 15-60 minute window???? Yeah and remember it is NEVER windy at an airport either right?

Runway foaming is for most airports a thing of the past. Some airports like Zurich, Istanbul/Ataturk, Ankara, Geneva, Lusaka & Dhaka/Zia are listed as having dedicated runway foam capabilities.

I have attached a Certalert from the FAA on runway foaming
http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/airports/airport_safety/certalerts/media/cert0204.rtf (http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/airports/airport_safety/certalerts/media/cert0204.rtf)


Protein foam is the only type of foam to be used for that purpose.

Airports foaming runways have dedicated fire vehicles (http://www.rosenbauer.com/index.php?node_id=323

A few pics on runway foaming

http://www.geocities.com/aircraftfire/temp/atene.jpg (http://www.geocities.com/aircraftfire/temp/atene.jpg)

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/030280/M (http://www.airliners.net/open.file/030280/M)

Kevin, we have been out of the runway foaming buisness for a few years now. We retired the runway foaming trailer about the same time we got our 3000 gal Strikers, the foamer was set up to be operated with a TI-3000. The few times we had used it for smaller GA AC they seemed to miss the blanket anyway and was a mess to clean up. We actually had to get the snow broom trucks out to clean it up and caused the effected runway to be closed for a while. As far as set up time for the operation, at least 20-30 minutes on a good day.



Captain Christy Delvey
Bradley Int'l Airport Fire Department